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invincible1 117 ( +1 | -1 )
Sicilian Dragon Question: Is there any line still worth playing or has the dragon been refuted completely?? I don't have any openings book so I don't know, but what I do know is that almost All variations have been analysed to death :-(. And if white knows the opening very well, black can at best hope for an ugly endgame and struggle for a draw. Is there ANY variation (even with a quick deviation is okay) where black has a sporting chance of a win? A variation that does not even allow white some forced draw etc...
Do any of the top GMs ever play Dragon nowadays?
An IM had once told me about the Chinese Dragon variation... however I have forgotten what it exactly is. Does anyone know? As far as I remember, the defining move was either Qb8 or Rb8 at some point... don't know when though, lol!

If anyone can suggest some dragon variation that can be employed to obtain double edged position (both against the immediate 0-0-0 as well as against the Bc4-Bd7, 0-0-0 variations), some variation that hasn't been beaten to death but analysts :(, please let me know!!!

Thanks!

invincible1
ccmcacollister 92 ( +1 | -1 )
It's been 10 years .... since I've played or met a Dragon. But back at the time, I found the variation involving Re8 by BL, before WT plays Bh6, to be a hard line to play against. I don't know of a Chinese Line, but the Stein Line features ...Qb8 vs an early WT o-o-o. &
the positions were quite rich and interesting at that time.
Back in 8th USCCC the Dragon did okay for me with a win vs a 2400ish player, Draw with a 2200ish, and loss vs 2100ish (go figure?!) . During the course of the event, a new Dragon improvement would be found in some variation 2 or 3 times during the playing of a game, that would often change opinion by a half-point. Which was part of the excitement of it. Not knowing if your line might get refuted by some GM or Author, besides your own opponent. But the old busted Dragon has
just seemed to refuse to die and keeps coming back. Fischer thought it for patzers then Kasparov took it up . . . Has it died again, & awaiting resurection ?! }8-)
marxisgod21 134 ( +1 | -1 )
The Chinese Dragon is the line that runs 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rb8!? with the idea of ...b5, ...Na5 and then, depending on the line, ...Nxb3 or ...Nc4. The theory on this line is still in the developing stages, so there is a lot of room for creativity.

The line that has been causing black the most trouble is, of course 9. O-O-O (which has caused some people to investigate the move order 7...Nc6 8. Qd2 Bd7!? with delayed castling, though personally I think it's rather dubious). Both of Black's two main tries 9. O-O-O are 9...d5 and 9...Nxd4, have both been analyzed exhaustively. The former is currently overwhelmingly more popular. However, I don't play 9...d5 and there is a ton of theory on it anyways so you'd probably be best off looking at the new book "Play the Sicilian Dragon" by Edward Dearing if you're interested in that line.

I've been playing 9...Nxd4 ever since I started playing the Dragon and I still contend that it's a playable line. Black's main problems have come after 9. O-O-O Nxd4 10. Bxd4 Be6 11. Kb1 Qc7 (11...Qa5? 12. Nd5!) 12. h4 Rfc8 13. h5 Qa5 when both the endgame after 14. h6 Bh8 15. a3 (with the idea of a Bxf6 followed by Nd5 and Nxf6+ intermezzo combo) and 14. hxg6 hxg6 15. a3 Rab8 16. Bd3 Bc4 17. Bxc4 Rxc4 18. Qc1!! have been causing black serious headaches. However, I still contend that both lines are playable and Dearing's book gives some analysis of some new ideas for black.
invincible1 89 ( +1 | -1 )
9.0-0-0 Thanks both of you for the replies! Oh and thanks for the info on the chinese dragon. But yes, it is only for the 9.Bc4 line then. And recently I discussed with a couple of people about 9.0-0-0. Apparently white has a very strong reply to the 9....d5 in 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 e5 13.Bc5 Be6 14.Ne4 and white seems to have a clear edge and no real problem in his position.

And yes, I also knew about the 9.....Nxd4 line and had heard about it from an IM some months ago and just a week ago my younger brother told me that after the 10. Bxd4 Be6 11. Kb1 Qc7 12. h4 Rfc8 13. h5 Qa5 14. hxg6 hxg6 15. a3 Rab8 16. Bd3 Bc4 17. Bxc4 Rxc4 18. Qc1!! (that you have also pointed out), black is pretty much lost!!! We tried a few variations and it did seem that white wins... we could not reconstruct all the analysis we had discussed with the IM, but even he had earlier said that it is as good as lost for black. Apparently the move 18.Qc1! was played by someone first in a CC game.
badgraphics 206 ( +1 | -1 )
The dragon and other openings Yes I believe that developing the queen's bishop to d7 and delayed castling is just the ticket for the dragon. marxisgod21 says he thinks this is dubious but doesn't say why. Reasons why I think it is good: Quick king side castling in this opening is just castling "into it". Another dumb move is placing the the queen's bishop in front of the king's pawn. Black simple must have the threat of advancing this pawn at any moment as a resource. The plan is simple: If white castles king's side so does black. If white castles queen's side so does black. Black can get away with waiting to castle because he has the "extra" center pawn. Don't castle until white commits his king. Do not attack! Simply defend the position. "Eat" the squares of your side of the board. Own your half of the board. Make white start the agression.

I do not know why the masters are fascinated with putting the queen's bishop in front of the king's pawn (anti-positional) and trying to force feed the queen's pawn up to exchange with the white king's pawn (also anti-positional) White's king's pawn should not be liquidated but should be put under the pressure of Black's pieces. Make White take care of it.

And finally, Black has not made any "mistakes" so his position should be a reasonable one. The fact that Black is getting crushed tells us that the position is being misplayed. And misplayed early and badly.

Why believe little old badgraphics? I was scolded by a friend who is a master because I developed my queen's bishop to a6 instead of b7 in a queen's indian because it wasn't "theory". WEEKS LATER it WAS the latest and greatest in grandmaster play. He scolded me for playing the budapest gambit. All the books said it was just throwing away a pawn. I saw the the given theory incomplete at best and crap more likely. Now its reputation has grown so much that some have taken to calling it the Budapest Defence instead of gambit. Etc. Etc. I love to talk about openings can you tell? Ask me more!
ccmcacollister 47 ( +1 | -1 )
haha badgraphics Thats funny about Ba6 ... cuz its not new ... its old. Fischer talks about it in My 60 Memorable Games, at least in a ...b6 Nimzo. :) Everything comes back in Chess, but maybe old chessplayers :-))
About that Dragon delayed castling kingside ... He may be right. WT will get to you eventually if you try to sit it out ... but your o-o-o is completely new to me. Tho seen in the Najdorf.
One thing WT has done vs delayed o-o is to switch-up and ram the f-pawn home. I hope you have something here. Results will talk and BS walk in Chess :) I think one of the old GM's said that . . .